There is a Middle Ground Here

Newell Normand
Thursday, March 1st

President Trump calls for a comprehensive gun bill, taking a more liberal stance on possible gun legislation.  David Law, Professor of Law an Political Science at Washington University in St. Louis and University of Hong Kong, joins Newell to discuss the President's stance and what we may see coming out of Congress soon.


Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

And joining me at this a point in time is David law professor of law professor of political science at wash U Washington university in Saint Louis. And University of Hong Kong and actually David. Thanks so much he actually is joining us from Hong Kong welcome to the show David. And I know it's late there are so obviously you're having a late dinner and willing to stay up to join us. So David and I'm sure you've seen the round table one hour discussion bipartisan. Leaders from both houses of congress. Talking about his gun control bill. And talking ending in the president's desire is to have one incredible bill what are your thoughts. Yes well it's and usually make policy that very rambling discussion. It is true that. Today. The president of our one bills which would. With a hard to keep track of what exactly you got to go the proposal. And very point you expressed support for reasons the each person's oh between Juan. Are we banning them all the other. Taking guns away from people ought be mentally ill. That one might be legally problematic. Are we were doing vehicle weapons them quite new and actually very eagerly you spot in the oval on what perspective. But I do you think that at least the taking away from people are going to court that going to be good call series about. Well my theory on that is that if you put that in the bill it's gonna be instantly challenge we're gonna be mired down in the courts for who knows how long. And that we get nowhere and we don't have a and operational outcome meaning something that we can we even to. All of these challenges that we have from an operational standpoint and actually have meaningful outcomes. Right it's probably not a great idea what breed provision that. Right from the outset has some constitutional beefed up. It's going to be very. A call to justify you know you know that as well anyone. You wanna keep some in the government to take something from someone that the search or seizure covered by the Fourth Amendment and so you're going to need. Yergin need to go to court. In almost all circumstance. Just by picking up and down from. And I think that probably also played and to be out there. The worst year. The program lobby that people will the government essentially a particular gun. Which at some level ones what president trump and to be proposed. Yeah you know and it's I think it's hypocritical as well and that's the problem that I have where that because he just signed legislation overturning an Obama rule relative to the Social Security Administration. Sharing. Those that have mental health issues. With the background check to bar gun ownership then and the thought there was that for the same reason. That this was going to be violent to move other constitutional principles. Pretty tightly. And I I think that. In the area gun control that we're in good with people need to be in the administration. But that is very much in consistency. The idea immediately rule. Rule that would. Allow the sharing information perspective to a mentally ill and really should not have to fire. Yeah in I I looked it at the actual administrative rules and everything that went behind that as a law enforcement guy I thought it was a pretty sound approach for the most part there were a couple of areas of slippery slope but. That could have been re mediated I think very easily. But I thought it was a well reasoned. Approach to try and accomplish what we all wanna accomplishing keeping the guns out of those folks that are danger to themselves or others. Yeah. Particular item but I would be there cry if there were not a strong Woodward American. Both in laws were just regular citizens who would like to see everything. Possible. You are part of the mentally ill. And I think that one of the reasons you saw president picking up on that particular idea. But it's something that is awfully difficult when minister as we on the board shooting where there were. The shooter was immensely trouble. And they're we happily go pro equal protection in place. You can simply walk someone up because you are being made note of interest but. You've been doing it's it was probably difficult to get someone to get the point where someone is declared. Mentally ill and therefore legally. Prohibited and there's a long way between dealing with some of the problem in being able to do that legally. And it absolutely as you go to the judicial process would fifty different ways. The states and then that doesn't even take into consideration the territories. How you go about doing that process with the nuances out of everybody's individual state laws it becomes very problematic. Right and you've got the federal state cooperation problem as well heeled there was Supreme Court should years ago. And actually invalidated portions of the Brady bill because they required the long term implication would Schwartzman. So you've you're not a big cultural and he'll work an inability to really good. It federal operation because the Supreme Court that the federal government can't quote unquote commandeer state on pursuant. And go back to what you said earlier in and I agree with your observation you're not absolutely sure what it was that he was advocating for. When he when he came to the universal background conversation. Daring this meeting. There seem to be many different appreciation so what they that universal Shaq would look like. And you know when they began to try to get specific about the loopholes. And it seemed to me that conversation was immediately changed in and jump from person to person who had their own. Ideology about other issues. To talk about brought up and I thought. That was by design that was not by accident. I think two and this is also. In the wake or does he have different people representing different constituencies and different and of course there are concerns you know gun control. I've gone wild international issues that are political the and we're different people to raise different concern. So you probable. Now. You're not necessarily gonna get the most current conversation which is like general speaking we all as it usually not the president. Senators and members of congress together at the and why and how. Right. Well and giving him the benefit of the doubt because I try to be fair to both sides his administration. And the Serra Huckabee Sanders has said throughout the week that by the end of this week so that we have today and tomorrow that he would be issuing a policy position all on these issues that he is going to advocate for so we'll wait and see. I think we're in pretty thing right I would I think I'll I don't know model and I think I was quite surprised. You hear some of the things the president seemed to be saying. In the proposal. I think it organ and it. You know we've forward. Now one thing that has happened is you know sensible gun control proposals. It might need to hear this. Whip the reassurance. For people to. It would have genuine legitimate reasons groaning and having gone for. It might not be the worst thing in the world have something more like Canadian system where. We're flexible when it comes to fifteen or sixteen year old he need to hold. In a hunting rifle because. Well where we lived with and actually on have to worry about things like beer than. And billion picture in the race and training in the new life in the you don't want. Once that happens it quite clear there's an entire class war that is OK to the and I think we can bring your level gun owners of the government's gonna calm they're gone there's nothing. We can just be clear. There umpire noble action rifle hunting rifles regulars are. You are just going to be OK with those as long as you can shall basic competency complete knowledge right. There is no middle ground here it is not necessarily being articulated. No I I don't disagree and out and and I think those are some little loopholes that they can they can work on one of the other things that I found interest thing is that down. The house majority whip Steve's release. Brought up the issue about the concealed handgun reciprocity. Provision. And the president was pretty strong insane if you really wanna kill this bill. Put that provision index is it'll never pass. That would interest thing and you know might yet there is what happened is the president alluded to is. Earlier lunch or breakfast meeting what they're represented the day. And he must have loaded a number like you and I'm guessing for into the immediately shot down and you'll carry proposal from represented the least. He looked at something very explicit might get married people try to draw all the evidence that do not go near and so I went yeah what do you think. I think they want it I think they want concealed carry but I don't think their votes are there I agree with the president Donald think the votes are there I think they're too many. A Blue States that then have more restrictive handgun laws and their and they are there is not a appetite. To get to that point of getting this reciprocity bill passed. Once again kind of did it creates a whole host of administrative issues as to where. You know what rights and and obligations you have as a concealed handgun parent owner and where you can go with that. And it's a concealed gun hand handgun permit individual I would be concerned about you know knowing all the laws that change in in some states but count me. Much less a day. Right. You know I think people are willing to trade a little bit. Maybe a little gun ownership rights of the margin for something as simple and transparent. You can understand. I definitely think that. That would be very complicated system but you know. I agree with you that that concealed carry in the deal breaker of the vote in congress but so many of the things that he was talking about it you would need. A week or month they're certainly a year ago are these deal breaker I would it's a big deal breaker as well I read in the triple weapons. Even talking about the way people guns possibly greenback is all weapons ban I'm not that all of these things are off the table but the real question as. Why do you think this particular thing is politically unfeasible or old Buick he was talking about would be feasible that I found here. Well because I think there's a more. There's a stronger or closer connection. To the event when you think about Las Vegas when you think about the shooting in taxes than when you think about it. Heartland. Two that the nearest concealed carry. Then it it you know and in part of the problem this is emotional thinking is driving a lot of what's cool all right. And the danger as you know emotional thinking is she don't always end up which credible meaningful outcomes. And it's creating read that balance where you can removing motion from the event from the issue. Because you know is one of mud speaker guest said yesterday violence is a process it's not an event. And so. Very wide of the net Jerry what I think that the problem is. When we look for better or worse when government make it big public all in lieu. Traditional dirt off you know constitutions are actually adopted after some sort of revolutionary. Log they're usually opted for the sponsored promotional bit right any policy walked some get. Sometimes get that all the people when you have these long in. The really take something emotional breakthrough. Vote again when you're there but a lot of theories about in the media and archer with an answer to this but it's not like emotions were running actors in the right it's not like emotions were running in the nightclub shooting in Puerto. Emotions are running right now. As a political I want well what fundamentally. Is different about this episode from the other note that explains why we might actually see them kind of breakthrough. And don't think I can point you are eager what you think in my. David I gotta get to a break can you hold it and we'll pick it up right there stay with us we'll be right practices and rule on WWL. Where backer David law professor of law professor of political science at Washington university in Saint Louis and also the University of Hong Kong and that's where he joins us from that at the present time and David. We were talking about the what makes this event all different you said you thought they were two things that you were getting ready to outline. Right well. There's a thing of being and aside by the media witches but that's the thing that I. I think it's real but it and Ager I think being a lot of interest thing is. Powell articulate. The victims. These students and Dohmann Douglas. Marco Rubio interest in that town all really something. I'd need for structural level I think one of the major differences that are around you how. Unified. Government right and Republicans on the kitten could total up the White House but how about the senate that got the Supreme Court. And so. When they're fighting over control the typical right. To. Push that into two characterized the debt just Democrat or Republican. Right it's hard for the public it because our government which is relatively rare art and politics. It's really hard for the public but how the ball on the one but think that. A big difference. From the previous debate. The other differences we out he Republican president but yet. They're mutual term is quite the he's not a typical Republican by any stretch CNET nation. So. Spirit that then that on the one hand Republicans cannot. Escape accountability for this particular issue at the top one of them because it apart that it. Inquisitor that Republicans for many decades has been we will keep you say and what we hear these high school students thing is you weren't on it because. It there that I have in Iraq again I'm sorry because we went over in the first when we got to get throw hard news break and be able to stay with this little longer. We'll be right back after the break this is Noual under Bolivia I'll. We're not we're talking to David law professor of law professor of political science at Washington university in Saint Louis and also at the University of Hong Kong where he joins his problem and and David we were we were it getting into the point of what makes this a bit different and you talked about a unified government where the Republicans. Control it presidency. Congress Supreme Court and then you're making your your other point. Yet I think what. Desperate point would be unified government aspect of it. So that. Partisan should potentially the other would simply be the the unorthodox nature of president trump pole positions. And you know the Republican Party I think it's having some trouble figuring out. You know to what extent it's going to follow the lead. To what extent to they have bought into his position that the post position traditionally held. And a lot of the internal opposition in the party to try and that's we've seen as so often significantly since the election. So it is. To beat them all in on the number of things you normally would expect gun control need be when we can't rule that out. Yeah you know I think there's a third element that I believe is well. Win as this songs. Situation begins to reveal itself it wasn't really a breakdown in the assessment. Of the danger of this individual. Because everybody knew from the student complaints to the school culture complaints to school administration school teachers. Law enforcement at a local level state level and federal level. All I knew it was really the real action. To. And so I think this is a boat a sense of cynicism as to no matter how strong we make the universal background checks how strong we do all these other things. It's still not gonna matter because we're relying on human intervention. In a system. That's really all set up above Menem is a nation of risk not elimination risk as well never eliminate this risk. Right in its totality. Right I think people like to see more lines to ban. And what's interesting from the ointment and that are being trotted out in the situation for example arming schoolteacher while you know we get one. Public safety Opteron product is right and by all accounts he apparently it. So you've got these officers who aren't on any kind of a threat what likelihood that the future right. Soul in that I think what people. Pull your people for. It is in many lines defense against something like being you know possible. And we know these are all right everything exactly a reduction in the Portland completely. None it it's gonna be that series a concentric circles of of developing. Something that's you know. It win it reveals itself a little bit more intrusive if something else reveals. Morin and intrusive nature by somewhere that someone somewhere somehow. And I think this systemic issues that we need to really resolved as. And I say this all the time almost every day information is power and communication is kitty. If we have the information and we hadn't figured out how to communicated to all the appropriate parties that can actually do something about it. We're not gonna get anywhere. Yeah. Well. My impression I could be wrong there migration and what actually beer and communication that went on surrounding. The shooter and support our school. And it. Bill didn't prevent things from happening right as you say I want them in gold to go law. So immediate that you know the media like I sure even the best information I like that ought it matter where you got a really good goal not shocked but. Now absolutely. No doubt. Well David thanks so much for joining us we really appreciated I know it's wait Pesci a bad time in Hong Kong and we really appreciate the fact that stayed up to talk to us this morning. It was a pleasure to Japanese keeper. That's David law professor of law professor of political science said Washington. University wash U in Saint Louis then the University of Hong Kong where he joined us from. He's always a great guest to talk to and is very learned then and so many issues surrounding this. We appreciate his time we'll be right back we wanna know what your thinking 260187. Near Texas City 78 so many as we talked about. This all important issue about how we're gonna get from point a to point B. In trying to whether it be universal background checks are on the issues tighten up on those and move forward will be right back.